What happened to the C&S turntable in Chama?

After my previous post, there has been a lot of confusion as to the whereabouts of the former Denver Rice Yard C&S turntable that went to the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad in May 1997.

Here is an album showing the turntable in pieces in Chama in 1997. 

So far, it is clear that the turntable was never used. It was taken for use for a potential project that included rebuilding the Chama roundhouse. That project never occurred. Individuals on various forums think the turntable is still in Chama (in what is referred to as the 'swamp') while others think it may have been scrapped. 

Below are some excerpts from a 1997 C&TS Dispatch related to the turntable move.

"- heard that Elitch Gardens in Denver was making a 100-foot through-truss bridge turntable available at no cost other than freight from Denver to Chama. The turntable allows for a shallow pit and will be a key element in the roundhouse approach." 

Below is part of an article from the 1997 C&TS Dispatch explaining the roundhouse proposal and how the turntable could fit in with it.

The Denver C&S turntable's 1997 move to the C&TS

From the June 1997 Rocky Mountain Rail Report.

Alpine Tunnel: The Problem of Clearance, part 2

Restricting the brakemens’ work was only one of the many problems caused by the tight clearances of Alpine Tunnel.  Sometimes equipment simply didn’t fit, like when the rotary snowplow had to go through the tunnel during the winter of 1904-1905.  A number of inches had to be cut off some timbers just to get it through when westbound.  On the way back eastward, three inches needed to be cut off the already cut timbers to get the machine through again.  Owing to this hatchet work, a telegram was later sent from Alpine Tunnel station to report that some of these timbers were now moving inward.  

Rotary just outside of the east portal
(from Historic Alpine Tunnel)

New timbers were sent shortly after the above telegram, but within several months of the repairs, four timbers were found to be “kicking in.”  In September of 1906 the Bridges & Buildings foreman inspected the tunnel and noted that “conditions grow worse as the mountain crowds the timbers.”  He recommended certain sections of timbers to be removed and reinstalled farther back in the wall to widen the tunnel.

Rotaries were not the only pieces of rolling stock with difficulties in the tunnel either.  In November of 1907 a gondola, whose sides had bowed out a foot, scraped on the sides of the tunnel timbers.  An additional problem was the buildup of ice on the timbers.  As the ice accumulated, it stuck out and cars ground into these while traveling through the bore.

Gondola 4319, the only known surviving C&S gondola, on display in Central City (Tim Bain photo). The car is now excellently restored in Como

The Alpine Tunnel, like the famous ocean liner Titanic, is a curious study in a glorious venture that went wrong.  How the great Alpine Tunnel project went wrong still fascinates many, and to the list of problems that brought this ‘ship’ down, must be added, clearance.  It may not be as epic as the Goliath-sized snow drifts that buried the line, but clearance and moving timbers were a continual battering in the hull of the tunnel that helped bring the bore down in the end.

Below is an interview with George Champion who piloted the last rotary through Alpine Tunnel in 1910.

Alpine Tunnel: The Problem of Clearance, part 1

part of a map from the VHS of the video inside the tunnel

Back in 1992, a group of people took a film crew into the Alpine Tunnel.  While I had seen many photos
of the tunnel’s abandoned interior, this video footage truly gave the sense of the tight inky blackness of being inside the fabled bore.  Yet, the narrow confines of walking the tunnel are no comparison to trying to operate full-sized narrow-gauge trains through it as a recent reread of a few pages of Colorado Annual 12 made clear.

A laundry list of problems plagued the Hancock to Quartz segment of the C&S including long stretches of 4% grades, long winters at altitudes above 10,000 feet, rock slides on the western side of the pass, and lack of sun to melt the snow on the east side along with much drifting of the dry snow.  The missing sunlight on the eastern slopes did, however, reach the higher mountain peaks creating slushy snow that eventually came down the mountain onto the track.  One other problem not related to grades or weather, though, was that of clearance in Alpine Tunnel itself.

A display mirroring the tunnel's arch

The Alpine Tunnel was a mere 14 feet high above the rails.  This left just a little over a foot of distance to the ceiling above many locomotive smoke stacks and roughly 24 inches above boxcar brake wheels.  By comparison, these clearances were two or more feet smaller than those of most snowsheds on the line.  The width was similarly tight: 2 1/2 feet less in width than other C&S bridge structures or snowsheds.

One quickly wonders what brakemen who were needed on the top of cars to turn the brake wheels were to do in this circumstance, particularly considering that eastbound trains had the double danger of going downhill once passing the apex of the tunnel and then facing a sharp 24-degree curve just outside of the east portal.  Since the tops of high cars was out of the question due to the height restriction, brakemen chose to find two gondolas with brake wheels on adjoining sides.  This allowed them to do what is called “double brakes” (though, this didn’t keep them from the inevitable smoke inhalation of the belching locomotives).  Still, many trains exiting the east portal were out of control.  It could take all three miles from the tunnel to Hancock to finally stop a train.  Of course, some were not so lucky and left the rails.

A westbound train at the west portal station. 
From Historic Alpine Tunnel by Dow Helmers

Part 2 of this exploration will be posted in the next few days.

If you'd like to see the Alpine Tunnel area by drone, check out this video from my Youtube channel:

Morrison's railroad history and re-laid track

 Back in 2024 Morrison, the first major DSP&P destination, celebrated its sesquicentennial. A video of the celebration does a wonderful job of telling the town's history. In particular, it honors the South Park Line and you'll see railroad history throughout the video (There's even a man impersonating David Moffat). Check out the 10:38 mark and you'll see some more railroad history as well as a shot of the restored track in town that was dedicated that day.

Interpretive Signs at Alpine Tunnel

 I just found an old video by the organization that installed the excellent interpretive signs from Quartz to the West Portal of Alpine Tunnel. They mention their work there briefly in the video. 

The work was dedicated in the spring of 2013.

The group's name was the Interpretive Association of Western Colorado. Unfortunately, it seems the group is no longer around, or at least its website is no longer functioning.

C&S refrigerator car and boxcar at Magic Mountain 1959

 In 1959 Magic Mountain opened in Colorado. It was a theme park styled after the stunningly successful new Disneyland. In keeping with Disneyland's design they constructed a narrow gauge train ride. To get narrow gauge rolling stock the park reached out to Bob Richardson who was in the process of moving equipment from the original Narrow Gauge Museum in Alamosa to the new Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden.

In a heartbreaking but financially prudent move  to raise money for the fledgling museum’s new building,   the museum sold two of its C&S cars, refrigerator 1116 and boxcar 8308, to Magic Mountain along with Rio Grande Southern engine 42, D&RGW high side gondola 1187,  and RGS caboose 0409  for use on the tourist-hauling park train. 

In the video below you can see glimpses of this train starting at 1:31.

The pocket book was tight and unfortunately these pieces of C&S lore filled the needy coffers.  Still, Bob appreciated  that the cars were given a chance to do what they were designed to do: haul cargo on steel rails, albeit human cargo this time.  To do this, though, unlike the RGS engine, the cars lost most of their historic appearance and design in the process of being turned into smaltzy open-air theme park pieces.   Much of the two C&S cars’ half-century old character was destroyed as everything but their frames and running gear were ripped out and discarded, only to be replaced by seats and rider car shells. 

Sadly, Magic Mountain closed up in less than a year. The cars moved around many times, even becoming part of a restaurant at the site. 

Today, 1116 still operates on the Georgetown Loop. 8308's frame and trucks are at the Colorado Railroad Museum.

Saving the Alpine Tunnel Historic District in 1994

 In April of 1994 Ray Rossman, East Zone Heritage Resource Manager for the U.S. Forest Service in Gunnison, filled out an important document that helped set in motion the tremendous restoration and historical work done to the Alpine Tunnel district.  That document was the "National Register of Historic Places Registration Form."  It was "for use in nominating or requesting determination for individual properties and districts."  I discovered this form online here.

In the form, Rossman names the stretch "along DSP&P railbed from Quartz to Hancock" as the "Alpine Tunnel Historic District."  The area is spelled out more specifically later as
"from the bridge crossing Chalk Creek at the Hancock townsite to the intersection of the railbed with the Cumberland Pass Wagon Road within the townsite of Quartz."  Also, "The boundary runs 100 feet on either side of the railbed centerline for approximately 13.8 miles.  Three hundred feet of the former Atlantic rail spur northwest of the east portal.  The district also includes the historic trail over Altman Pass."

The form is quite extensive, including a narrative description, a map, topographical details, a list of contributing and noncontributing structures and sites, a statement of historical, engineering, transportation, and informational significance, geographical data, present property owners along the route, and a photograph log (with accompanying photos).

It is an interest document to peruse.  I include below a few interesting excerpts with a few notable points in bold:

Alpine Tunnel station/telegraph office

The Mile-Hi Jeep Club recently restored the [Alpine Tunnel telegraph office] and removed the extension. The only deviation from the original construction is the replacement of the tar paper roof with steel roofing material. The building retains its historic integrity, is the best preserved structure at the station complex, and is a contributing building in the district.

Outhouse

"A two-hole outhouse/privy is located 35 feet west of the boarding house. The building has partially fallen over. This was the second outhouse constructed. Photographic evidence suggests the original structure was located directly west of the front entrance of the engine house."

The Storage Cellar

"A covered storage cellar is located 20 feet south of the boarding house. Entrance was gained though a covered walkway that extended from the front porch of the boarding house. Today the structure has lost its metal roof and the stone walls are leaning inward."

The Coaling Platform

"Forty feet south of the cellar are the standing timbers of a 16'x 32' coaling platform. Coated by creosote, the structure has remained in good condition. The eastern side has shown the most deterioration. The structure contributes to the district."

Future Plans (includes rebuilding the boarding house!)

"Future management plans for the Alpine Tunnel Station complex calls for the restoration of the coaling platform, outhouse and storage cellar. The ultimate goal calls for the restoration of the facility to its 1910 configuration including the rebuilding of the two story wooden boarding house."

Tunnel Gulch Water Tank

About a half mile downgrade a new water tank, the Tunnel Gulch water tank, was built after the avalanche. The Tunnel Gulch water tank. This structure was stabilized and restored by the Mile High Jeep Club. The tank is one of the best examples of the typical water tanks used along the South Park rail system. The structure contributes to the district."

The Tunnel Interior

"The interior, though not easily accessible, remains in moderately good condition. There are two minor rock falls and a major tunnel collapse within the tunnel. The most significant is a 300-350 foot section which collapsed and completely sealed off the eastern portal. The western portal, faced with locally quarried hand-cut granite stones, has been covered by talus debris and has suffered only minor damage. Several support beams throughout the tunnel have also collapsed. In addition, a white mold covers some of the interior redwood timbers. The original rails and ties extend the length of the tunnel. These rails represent the only portion of the entire DSP&P rail system that remains intact. Water covers a portion of the railbed at both ends where the tunnel is sealed off. The snowsheds that protected both portals have totally collapsed and decayed. The east portal was constructed directly into solid granite and required no external facing. The tunnel is a contributing structure in the district."

The Stone Section House

"The stone section house was an "L" shaped structure built in 1881. It functioned as the original boarding house for the assigned complex crew members. The initial construction measured 55'x 30' and had a 25'x 16' addition added to the northeast corner prior to 1896. The corner, window, door and sill stones are of native hand-cut granite. The walls were constructed with random sized native stone material. Based upon photo evidence this facility was abandoned by 1896. Today only foundations and segments of the lower walls remain visible."


More gems can be found throughout the document.

Curiously, there is a stamp on this document stating that it was received in 1996.  That is a roughly two-year gap between when Rossman completed it and it was received.  I'm not sure why this is.

Also, here is an interesting photo of a culvert in the form that I didn't know about.

Happy Easter! Born Again on the C&S

 In 1972, the song that would later become one of the state songs of Colorado, hit the airwaves. John Denver’s “Rocky Mountain High” was a biographical tune containing the lines, “He left yesterday behind him; you might say he was born again.”

Denver’s reference to “born again” was a tip of the hat to what came to be called the Jesus Movement, a generation of young, often long-haired hippies who eschewed both the sex and drugs culture of the 60s and 70s as well as the stodgy nominal church life of many of their parents. Instead, they discovered that to follow Jesus was a radical new life, akin to begin “born again,” a phrase Jesus Himself used when he explained to a seeker that eternal life is life that begins not in Heaven, but now, at the point of following Him.

On this Easter Sunday, when many of us celebrate that Jesus conquered death, making a way for us to be “born again,” it is a delight to see a symbol of this new life in a tiny railroad that has been experiencing many rebirths lately. It might be a stretch to call it a symbol, but I’d like to believe the Lord looks kindly on a our meager attempts to resurrect that which was lost.

One can't think of the C&S these days without considering the resurrection in Como. The Como depot, as just one example, was long dead not that long ago. The only thing left was to finally fall over in one of those characteristic South Park winds. 

But death was not the end-of-the-line for the depot. 

I took this photo in 2004 (with a superimposed image of a train at the same location in operation days). I never would have believed that this historic station would rise again. 

But here it is. Alive again. A foretaste of the Day when He will make all things new.

Happy Easter! He is risen!

I made the following video in 2018, so much, much more resurrection has happened since then, but it's still a great testimony to the hard work of the DSP&P Historical Society and the South Park Rail Society (and all the countless volunteers)

Check out my book Colorado & Southern Narrow Gauge Revival. 

Discovered! The end-of-track after Alpine Tunnel dismantling

 I've always wanted to find the spot where the rails left behind after the 1923/1924 dismantling work stopped. Using Google Earth I was able to pinpoint the spot.

I matched up the below screenshot from Google Earth with one of the photos of the end-of-track and then placed a pin on the DSP&P overlay on Google Earth. I was particularly trying to line up both a turn to the right of the roadbed, a rocky embankment on the right, and a similar background of the mountain contour and trees.

June 24, 1956 R.H. Kindig photo from Tom & Denise Klinger's Gunnison Memories and Then Some

While there is one more right turn (just before the track would straighten out for the Alpine Tunnel station complex), the mountains look a bit too close when viewed on Google Earth. It also doesn't seem to match the rocky bank on the right as well as the spot I chose.

Check out my book Colorado & Southern Narrow Gauge Revival. 

First rail removal near Alpine Tunnel station in 1940

It appears that the first removal of rail from the remaining mile from the east portal to some point down the western slope took place in 1940 and it included rail (at least) running between the engine house and stone section house ruins and the depot and two-story section house. 

First, it is clear that rail was present at this location in 1939, roughly 16 years after the Quartz to Hancock section was officially scrapped, as seen in the 3 photos below. 

1939

Aug. 6, 1939 R.H. Kindig - James Ehernberger Collection-Gunnison Memories

June 1939 Donald E. A. Rogers

June 1939 Donald E.A. Rogers

Undated (possibly June 1939)

D.E. Rogers Mineral Belt 2 - Undated, but judging on the 
fact that the photographer took the photo above this one at
Alpine Tunnel in June 1939, my guess is it is the same date.
Also, the Alpine Tunnel station signs were removed on Aug. 6, 1939. 
This photo shows them still in place.

The next 2 photos are telling. The first (A), from June of 1940 shows the mainline and passing track still in place between the station and engine house. 

1940

PHOTO A: June 1940 Richard Kindig Mineral Belt 2

This next photo (B) is also dated as 1940, but the rail seems to be freshly removed as demonstrated by the discoloration on the ties. The photo does not have a month listed, so it appears that all we know is that sometime after June of 1940 some (not all, as upcoming posts will show) rail was removed in the vicinity of the Alpine Tunnel station complex.

PHOTO B: 1940 John W. Maxwell The South Park Line

The tricky part is-->these 2 photos show slightly different locations. It's possible that the rails are gone at the left of the June 1940 photo (A), but not in front of the section house and depot. It is also possible that the rails are in place beyond the viewpoint of the photographer in the (B)1940 shot. 

I can't verify either theory as the next photo I have of the area in front of the depot is dated "Mid-1950s" which shows rail gone at that spot. I'm assuming that photo (B) shows rail gone all the way past the section house and depot. 

I have no knowledge yet of who removed the rail, for what purpose, and why (as we will see in upcoming posts) there was still much rail left in place east toward the tunnel and outdoor turntable as well as west down the mountain grade.

Check out my book Colorado & Southern Narrow Gauge Revival. 

A gallery of rail removal at Alpine Tunnel 1939-1960

About a mile of DSP&P/C&S trackage was left in place after the 1923/1924 scrapping of the Alpine Tunnel line between Quartz and Hancock. This included track inside the tunnel and west a bit downgrade beyond the Alpine Tunnel facilities. I am trying to piece together when the tracks were removed. This seems to have been done in different segments and not all in order.

Below is a collection of photos showing the progression. I hope to analyze what can be determined from the photos. Keep a look out for future posts where I will identify locations and observations of these images. If anyone knows more or can provide other photographs, please chime in. I'm eager to learn.

1939

Aug. 6, 1939 R.H. Kindig - James Ehernberger Collection-Gunnison Memories

June 1939 Donald E. A. Rogers

June 1939 Donald E.A. Rogers

Undated (possibly June 1939)

D.E. Rogers Mineral Belt 2

1940

June 1940 Richard Kindig Mineral Belt 2

1940 John W. Maxwell The South Park Line

 1948

Les Logue, Everett Rohrer and Irv August (left to right) are shown cutting rail at the approach to the Alpine Tunnel Station, October 2, 1948. (Ed Haley Photograph) Feb. 1991 Rocky Mountain Rail Report

1949

July 19, 1949

1953

Richard Kindig 1953

Richard Kindig 1953

Richard Kindig 1953

Mid-1950s (correct?)

Neal Miller, Author's collection

1955

Aug 13 1955 Art Wallace - 2002 The Bogies & the Loop

1956

Bob Richardson RR-1275 Denver Public Library

1950s

Al Chione, 1950s? Ted Weise collection

1956

R.H. Kindig - James Ehernberger collection - Gunnison Memories

1957

Sept. 1957 Ed Haley Mineral Belt 2

Sept. 1957 Ed Haley Mineral Belt 2

1958 

June 29, 1958 Lew Schneider

June 29, 1958 Lew Schneider

June 29, 1958 Lew Schneider

Mid-1950s (correct?)

Neal Miller Gunnison Memories

Mid-1950s Neal Miller-Author's collection

Mid-1950s Neal Miller Gunnison Memories

1960

“Until mid-summer of 1960 the ensuing three miles of grade was impassable to truck or jeep.  Huge granite boulders and rock slides had blocked the way, filling cuts and narrowing the passage.  In the summer of 1960, Gunnison County sent a “Cat” to clear the way to Alpine.  The road could hardly be designated as a Freeway, but it is easily passable for Jeeps and trucks.  The grade, of course, is not steep, the problem being to have sufficient clearance under the vehicle to avoid damage from rocks.” Historic Alpine Tunnel by Dow Helmers p. 96 

Unknown dates

Check out my book Colorado & Southern Narrow Gauge Revival.